Here is a transcript of a meeting a couple of months after Stewart Traill admitted to missing grace. He never said that he was sorry. He never allowed the brothers and sisters to express their thoughts, their feelings, and their opinions about it. The significance of this transcript is that a brother who was a member of the church confronted him and at this meeting questioned him on the things that Stewart Traill himself had said. Stewart Trail seemed angry and annoyed that someone would dare question him on his thoughts, his policies, his behavior, and his wrongdoings. Stewart Traill, at the grace meeting, floated this whole idea about true Christians not sinning, and Traill also said that no one was born again except he and Gail; he also uttered other false teachings and fallacies.
[On recorder: File A-30]
(It seems as though a group was together, and then Stewart arrives... and begin to record conversation)
A brother speaking said: ďÖfor the good of others, I think he has been holding back, when we get together, thatís the reason
Stewart Traill speaking: Nope
Brother: He was more obvious. I do see hopeful signs too, I do see some brothers really trying to at least lay down their lives for their brethren, I see some trying Ö Another brother said: I do too.
Stewart Traill said: Motivated too.
1st brother: but I think we have to do so all the more, to help the weaker ones Ö
Most of group reply: I do too
Another brother spoke up: So far, a few brothers have said that we see each other more as individuals and some holding back, some more encouraged and giving of themselves and thatís about as far as weíve gotten, we just started to discuss it.
Stewart: Well, those of us that are more encouraged, then letís encourage those that arenít as encouraged.
All agree enthusiastically, and one brother could be heard saying: ďThank you JesusĒ
Another brother speaks: I think itís like a time of testing and to be patient to see where Jesus is leading us and to see where weíre going to be as a fellowship exactly and all the more do the best we can and trust Jesus.
All agree enthusiastically.
A brother said: Last night we were discussing that we can practice what we do know, which Iím fully into, which is staying at home and Godís love for me and loving one another and confessing my belief to others, ya know, even the whole thing of witnessing, not really sure exactly what Iím gonna say, but just confessing my belief, looking for Jesusí sheep. The things we do know, we can practice those.
Anther brother said: And what heís revealed to us, he keeps us
A lot agree and say ďThank you JesusĒ
He continued: I see Jesus keeping me and keeping other brothers.
A lot of positive response and agreement as a group
Stewart: The same faith that says, ďHeís gonna save me, has to say: ďHeís gonna keep me from sin tooĒ
Stewart: Anything less is not faith, therefore, ĎAnything that does not proceed from faith is siní [Rom 14:23] You canít pick and chose his words. Remember he said, ďBe sure of this that no impure and on and on, no sinner will inherit, that means: No sinner is a child of God, in Eph 5:5
|Eph 5:5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (added during scribing of recording verse referred to)|
Stewart: Inherits the promise, therefore, heís not walking by faith, whoever that one is that does, therefore he hasnít yet come to repentance, but thereís hope for him, but ah, he can never be there, my, thatís an awful thing, and thereís no need to.
Stewart: Now, the next verse, after: ďNo one who sins is a child of GodĒ thatís what it says, the next verse is: ďLet no one deceive you with empty wordsĒ Eph 5:6 Yeah, you can sin, itís all right, remember he said, ďI warned you, as I warned you beforeĒ? [Gal 5:20]
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, |
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit,
Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (added during scribing)
Stewart: How is it that that is so common? I hope you all realize that God is saving us.
Everyone: Yes!! I realize it!
Stewart: And, heís making a way for us, he wouldnít show us if he wasnít making a way, so, whatís the problem? And why is anyone discouraged? Itís not hard.
(Sounds like Jim Greiner: The only thing that I can see as a problem is more of us pulling together as a ďweĒ instead of lonely Christians, thatís the only thing that comes to my mind.
Another brother said: ďWe who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak. [Rom 15:1]
Stewart: We always do that one way or another, really, whatís different? Itís just that we know where we standÖ (most agree) thatís the only thing thatís different, we have a sure way of telling it. If we value him, we can tell where we stand and how to proceed, is that all thatís new?
A brother said: I was reading Ephesians 5:5 (proceeded to read vs. 5 & 6:
|Eph 5:5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.|
Stewart: ďLet no one deceive youĒ with what?
Brother: ďWith empty wordsĒ
Stewart: ďWith empty wordsĒ Ė contrary to the sound teaching of the Apostles, but thereís no reason to fear. Is anybody discouraged because they figure they havenít reached repentance?
One said: I have
Stewart: ďWell thereís no reason to be discouraged, now you have a sure guide and ďIs Jesus calling you?Ē
Brother answered: Yeah
Stewart: Well donít forget the first thing: ďI give them eternal life and they shall never perishĒ [Jn 10:27,28] Donít get into a new score card now; remember the basics, a new kind of score card. ďOh, I havenít reached repentance yet, now I know, before I didnítÖ What are you calling time?
Brother who read Eph: Well, I should speak to the brothers about what I did Monday morning Ö
Stewart: Wait a minute, you donít understand about time, you know yourself that thereís lots of men walking around here that are totally in sin, totally lost in sin, and some of them in what you call time will soon repent and theyíll come to know Jesus, and be his children, itís only the way we look at time, that ah, thereís no time to him. So all you have is a better guide. Thank you Jesus.
Others: Thank you Jesus.
Jim Greiner: He took us out of darkness and brought us into his marvelous light. [1 Pe 2:9] Lots of agreement and someone said: ďBy the grace of God onlyĒ
Someone said: I know what helps me a lot is I keep going to that one verse: He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion. [Php 1:6] And it matters less to me where along the line I am, I know that he started his work in me and he will bring it to completion. (lots of agreement from others) and where I am along that path in a way who really caresÖ Stewart: You try wailing: ďOhh Iím only his sheep, Iím only guaranteed eternal life, ohhĒ thatís what you have to do, ďOhh, Iím only guaranteed eternal life.. Do you claim youíre his sheep? (loud ďYesĒ) Youíre guaranteed eternal life. Ohh, I donít see it yet and I canít figure it out and handle it, well, we never will anyway, you have some idea that those who have been born anew are in control of it or something? No way.
Stewart: And another thing, you notice that the fellowship of the brothers is more sober recently (all agree) Is that an improvement or not? Letís here some more to the praise of God.
Brother: And to the ones on the edges there a lot more withdrawn because ah, I talked to Hilton about two days ago and I told him what happened at the meeting and for the first time Hilton ever stood and talked to me and he was like: ďThis is amazing, this is really good, Iím coming over to see some moreĒ
Stewart: Thatís very encouraging to me
Brother: Thatís how he was
Stewart: That has to happen
Brother: He was just like: This is, Iím marveling at this, this is really clear and he was really wanting to come over and the next day he came over.
Another Brother spoke up: Heís been talking to me almost every day, he used to not say anything. A few weeks ago he wouldnít say anything, even Iíd see him, heíd just go away
(Sounds like Bob Whipple said: Dave Rizzetto said today that he sees it more clearer and clearer that what Jesus showed us is the truth and that the issue with him is that he hasnít surrendered.
Stewart: How much are you doing? Your spirit knows itís true. Your spirit knows itís true. (group agreement) What is Godís will, to sin or not sin? (Group reply: not sin) You promised to do it,
A brother said: That one line does seem to work very good about, ďwell, which would you rather be true?Ē That approach really seems to get under the, or straight through all the games and stuff.
Stewart: Which would you prefer: here you see it all over the place: Come to your right minds and (everyone together says:) Ö sin no more! [1 Co 15:34] So Peter and Paul and Jesus are telling you to do something impossible. [at 31:31]
A brother said: I know what the Bible speaks of is true, but I disagree with how itís being presented.
Brother continues: Thereís a verse here in Job, it says: How can a man be righteous before God. How can he who was born of woman be clean? [Job 25:4] Behold, even the moon is not bright and the stars are not clean in his sight; how much less a man ..
Stewart interrupted reading: now Jay!
Jay tried to continue: Ö who is a maggot
Stewart: Jay! Jay would you stop it?!
Jay finishes reading verse: Ö and the son of man, who is a worm.
Stewart: Jay would you stop it? .
Other brothers join Stewart in trying to get Jay to stop reading the Bible saying his name over and over.
Stewart: Now does he have to leave again? Are you gonna behave yourself Jay? .
Jay: Behave myself? .
Stewart: Are you going to? .
Jay: According to whose standards, yours or my fathers? .
Stewart: Are you gonna listen or not? .
Jay: Read Isaiah 6.
Everyone chimed in together that they didnít want to hear anything else.
Jay: Itís been helping me a lot Ö.
Stewart: Jay! Are you gonna interrupt or are you gonna let me finish Jay? .
Jay: Please finish. .
Stewart: Are you gonna interrupt. Are you gonna be rude, downright rude? .
Jay: Iím not gonna let you continue to do what youíre doing. .
Sounded like Bob Whipple said: Answer the question.
Stewart: Jay, since you said youíre gonna be quiet.
Jay: I think youíre leading these brothers in pride, in the name of Jesus.
Stewart: Jay, since you said youíre gonna be quiet and let me finish, (louder) since you said youíre going to, part of your error is, those that never sin again have not been born of woman, your verse there is speaking under the Old Covenant: Man who is born of woman cannot be clean, thatís right, Iíve been born anew and itís not of woman, Jay, as part of your error.
Jay: I agree with that, but thereís more to it than that and you know it.
Stewart: And you shouldnít be reading that scripture, in this way.
|Note: 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable Ö|
Stewart interrupts: youíre right, the new nature does not sin..
Jay continues:. who were born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God, who were born, you destroyed a lot of brothers and sisters confidence in their salvation, that theyíre not even born again (referring to a previous meetings teaching)
The group loudly disagrees and has a loud murmuring that opposes Jays comment: everyone talks loudly at once, itís hard to distinguish whatís being said, one can be heard to say, Ďno oneís destroyed my confidence in my salvation, another says: no, itís the opposite, but itís definitely loud and everyone is speaking at once so that itís hard to know what theyíre saying, but they are as a group challenging Jayís comment.
Jay speaks up over the crowd: Theyíre walking around with question marks on their foreheads, and theyíre asking someone else about the questions that youíre questioning.
The group loudly protests together saying: Thatís not true
Jay: How can you tell someone about being born again when you donít have confidence yourselves?
A brother said: Hey Jay!
Jay: You better read Isaiah 6! [The 1st time he said it the crowd was loud so he made sure he was heard by repeating louder:]
You better read Isaiah 6!
Stewart: Are you gonna give us peace? Is he gonna give us peace?
It sounded like Bob Whipple asked: Are you gonna give us peace?
Jay: Hey, Jesus is not pleased.
Bob W: Jay, are you gonna give us peace or are you gonna go on?
Jay: Hey, youíre Godís sons and youíre wrong, youíre being led the wrong way, whether intentionally or unintentionally I doní know, but youíre being led the wrong way. Jesus is coming and youíre getting into something else thatís totally controversial Ö
[the whole time he was saying the previous statement very clearly the group was loudly trying to stop him from speaking]
Bob W very loud: Jay! Jay! Are you gonna give us peace or are you gonna go on?
Jay: That all depends on what you consider peace? And Iím not one who is here to be ..
Cut off someone asks: Are you answering the question?
The group all answers for him loudly: Noooooooooooo
A brother says: Brothers, you need to be dismissed.
Stewart: Is he gonna be rude or is he gonna sit silent? What do the brothers want?
Group answers loudly: Silence!
Jay: May I read one more thing and Iíll be silent?
Group answers loudly: Noooooooooooo
Jay: Itís Godís word
Group answers loudly: Noooooooooooo
Bob W: Brothers, do you think he should promise that heís gonna be quiet?
Group answers loudly: Yes!
Stewart: Why are you disruptive anyway? Thatís not Godís spirit. Thatís not Godís spirit to be disruptive and rude, isnít that right Jay?
Jay: Itís not Godís spirit to control people the way you do.
Stewart: Jay youíre not answering, are you being rude?
Jay: I donít think I am.
Stewart: Ask everyone, do you despise the whole body?
Jay: No I donít.
Stewart: Well than ask them.
Jay: Brothers, do you think I am being rude?
Group answers loudly: Yes! Very rude. A brother speaks up: Jay, if you were loving your brothers you wouldnít be insisting on what youíre doing right now, because love does not insist on its own way.
Stewart: Iím only trying to figure out a way to help him.
Jay: Brothers, I really mean no harm, I really donít.
A brother asks: Well then are you going to promise to behave and sit quietly for the rest of the meeting?
Jay: A promise to you or to Jesus?
A bunch respond: To us, To all of us brothers?
Jay: Because if the Lord be Godís servant, if you be God then Iíll listen to you.
Someone asks: Are you gonna listen to the brothersí fellowship Jay or are you gonna do your own thing?
Jay: Brothers listen, youíre in prison and you donít even realize it
Bob: Donít you see that weíre only trying to find a way to help you? All of us?
Jay: I apologize for being rude, I pushed my way, thatís wrongÖ
Jim Greiner interrupts Jay: Does this apology stand for youíre going to make a promise to sit there quiet for the rest of the meeting yes or no?
Jay: I canít promise that.
Observation made by scriber of tape who was not there: When the speaker Jay originally began to contribute there had been a long pause and he seemed to want to share an insight with a scripture, before he was given the courtesy to finish his verse and make his comment the speaker Stewart cut him off from making his point and then accused him of being rude and interrupting.|
From this observers view it seems that others comments are not welcome and anyone who has a different perspective is cut off, not allowed to make their observations without being interrupted and then are accused of being rude and disruptive.
Had the speaker Jay been able to read his reference and make his comment the meeting might have proceeded without any problem, but when issue was taken with someone who had a contribution, especially a scripture, the group insisting on a Ďsit down and shut upí stance is making a statement that no one elseís opinions are wanted in this group and that its acceptable to be insulting to those who have a different view.
Stewart interrupted but accused Jay of interrupting and being rude and proceeded to get the rest of the group involved in accusing Jay until Jay himself admits to rudeness?
This group dynamic seems to ostracize anyone with a different view.
Jay: Jesus is coming brother Stewart and you were told to forget everything that youíve learnedÖ
The whole group loudly interrupts
A brother says: If you were looking at whatís going on, youíre just going to hurt yourself.
Jay: Hurting myself?! That right there is of little importance right now.
Bob W: Do we want peace in our meeting?
Group loudly: Yeah!! Yes!
Bob W to Jay: You must be silent. You must be silent Jay. Group: Yes!
Jay: Isaiah chapter 6 brothers. Please, please! Please! Isaiah chapter 6
Stewart: Is someone watching him? You should watch him right brothers?
Group responds: Yes
Stewart: Thatís what a brothers fellowship should do, or he could hurt himself.
There was a bit of jostling around for a minute.
Stewart: I think thereíll be a great deal of excitement as the truth gets stronger and stronger.
Jim G: Because again, it takes away the hiding places, because no place to hide and God makes it very clear where everybody stands.
Jim G: Thank you Jesus, Iím glad to know where I stand. Group: Agrees loudly.
Someone says: I testify that I know clearly where I stand.
Anther brother says: I have more confidence in the day of judgment than Iíve ever had in my life.
Anther responds: Same here! A lot more confidence, more assurance.
Stewart: And you havenít seen anything yet.
Someone says: Thank you Jesus.
Stewart: Thatís only the tip of the ice berg, remember, something has been very wrong with the way weíve been looking at the New Covenant. Somethingís been very wrong, in our lives and in our understanding, somethingís been very wrong. This is the tip of the iceberg.
Jim G: Itís a marvel, because God chose, at this time in life or whateverÖ
Someone says: Iím amazed Iím here!
Someone agrees: Iím amazed Iím here too! Thank you Jesus! I really do marvel, yeah!
Stewart: Youíre not yet aware of the confidence thatís available by being able to walk around and say, ďI donít see any contradictions in the New TestamentĒ that everything makes sense. You know, the word Ďmindí is very important, a lot more so than I ever thought. The last thing Christians want to hear, the word Ďmindí, but ah itís very important. Not that minds save us, but itís very important part of Godís plan.
Stewart: How much do you still see whatís a contradiction in the New Testament, whatís an apparent contradiction, things that donít make sense?
Group speaks at once: some