WOULD YOU LIKE A BLESSING?
“All were baptized into Stewart Traill. In every sense of the word: his teaching, his concepts, his view on life, his skepticism of other Christians. Go and learn what this means”.
Blessed is he and blessed is she who is able to get free from the grip of Stewart Traill and the Church of Bible Understanding, and those who are able to overcome his lies and curses will have a great reward.
All Were Baptized Into Stewart Tanner Traill
In this section, we will discuss the concept of all were baptized into ST in every sense of the word. what is baptism? It is an agreement, or covenant with something or someone. Below is a coversation that we had on MM's xboo group. Many who have left find it difficult to admit that they were baptized into ST. Uness there is a true and honest admission of a true condition, there can be no healing from the Lord Jesus christ.
#109797 – 09/27/10 5:51 pm by Dave Simmons
All were baptized into Stewart Traill. In every sense of the word: his teaching, his concepts, his view on life, his skepticism of other Christians. Go and learn what this means.
#109798 – 09/28/10 12:29 am by Nancy Coogan
No, I get the poetic language, but I disagree. In some of the creeds the early Christians made a big point to declare "There is one faith, one baptism," although a friend of mine teaches there are three baptisms, but he's a dear theologian and although I see his point I disagree with him also. My point is,the word is poetic perhaps in reference, and the biblical exhortation to "go and..." is also poetic in a sense, but baptism, well, that is an important word, not just a word to be used lightly. The baptism of the Holy Spirit, now that is a concept I didn't understand until OUT and even then experientially and not definitively. And no, baptism is not just "affected by" so I'd claim I don't fit your description. If I'm "going and learning" there are a lot more things theologically I'm curious about than ST. Nancy C.
Dan C comments on nancy c all were baptised
Nancy, This should have piqued your curiosity. For it is a no-brainer. That is, it doesn't take much thought to see it. But it does take some dancing around NOT to see it. And it is indeed about us ALL. Now I don't always see the no-brainers either. Remember where we are from. It is because we were steeped in his teaching, his thoughts, his mannerisms, etc. that we have such a hard time seeing anything differently. To argue even the possibility of this "new" thinking is, to me, a proof of its power over one. And, What theological questions are more important than this, if it be true? Are you saying you were only "affected by" him, and not totally bought into it all like the rest of us were? You were not immersed into his teaching and reaching into our souls? Would that you weren't. Would that any weren't. But those who weren't are those who escaped very quickly; who had the sense to say No, this ain't right! Aeave the presence of a fool. To me, this is not poetry, and Dave does not care for it, but only in getting his message across. In that sense, it is poetic, because that is one purpose of poetry. And it did indeed get the message across. But since you don't like the message, you dally about the delivery, and of course try to impugn the deliverer. And so you need a little help, a little nudge. Go and learn. How did we know you wouldn't get it, that you would act like you do get it and that you have no need to go and learn anything? There is of course only one baptism. But we were not baptized into the true one, but into a false one. "For it has been reported that there is quarreling among the brothers, and some say, I belong to Stewart and his church of holy understanding."
<#109805 – 09/28/10 09:55 am by Mike Montoya
go and learn?....I already got it sitting here m
#109819 – 09/29/10 09:51 pm by Tod Burros
Ok but WHY did we trust him? Was it because he was kind to us? Patient? Peaceful? Because he was filled with the Spirit of God and blessed those around him? No we trusted st because we were scared to death not to. We not only would take the chance of him personally attacking us as he clearly showed he had no problem doing but he would also make it so that all our peers would treat us as lepers. I said to someone recently that we believed that st was God's chosen and to go against him was to go against God. Pretty hard stuff to go against from my memory As to Jim Larue's point to Mike in the last email I don't see how do you not be affected by this is beyond me. I don't want to define someone else's reality but in my personal opinion it is much more likely that someone doesn't see the effect Cobu had on them than it is that they were not affected. I am open to any discussion on this issue that might show me I am mistaken.
#109821 – 09/29/10 03:33 pm by Tod Burros
My thoughts are is that I agree with Dave Simmons that all were baptized into Stewart Traill. I am willing to discuss this very calmly and peaceably with anyone who wishes to. I am open to others thoughts on the matter. I know your brother Chris too. Not as well as you of course but I was in Cobu with him and we had more than one heart to heart talk where he expressed his doubts and frustrations with God and about God to me.
To say that this discouragement is not tied in any way to how discouraging Cobu was I just can't agree with as I saw how he tried from time to time and was discouraged when his efforts were not "good enough for God" or st as the case turns out to be. I also have seen countless times the effect of "ST is not the issue". We were preached this by st and by each other. It was sad but I have seen many people blame God or themselves instead of the true culprit for their discouragement. This is a constant thread i have seen over 20 years not a thought that has occurred to me recently.
As to Chris insolating himself ALL of us had weaknesses before we got saved. Because they were not dealt with properly in Cobu I believe they got worse. So for someone like myself who was anxious and worried anxiety became a huger issue
because it was not properly bound up and comforted by the spirit but instead it was acerbated by cult life.
So remember the teaching that it "is on you brother". That one is deep and very hard to get around So it is not surprising that we as individuals when discouraged would retreat to whatever we were before salvation. And that we blame ourselves or can see how it is another individuals fault for their problems. We were not taught to lift up our pain our fears and our weaknesses to God, to touch them and to deal with them. Rather we were made to feel ashamed of them and that we needed to hide from them because to touch them in Cobu would only make us more of a prey. Thanks for asking these questions. I am really enjoying discussing this. Tod
#109823 – 09/29/10 03:57 pm by Mike Montoya
we were all baptised into Stewart Traill......well....for me to get into this here would be for argument's sake...i have an idea about what was meant by the phrase.... don't see it as helpful in my journey to understand all this. I must say here that I found your email , Dave, a little psuedo-spiritual, in that you make this statement ..which is parallel to scripture we all know and then the "go and learn what this means"....smacks of you being in the place of Jesus as speaker, and the rest of us in the place of either the pharisees or jews or the dumb masses that have to "go and learn"...while in private Jesus explained everything to his disciples......so I call this to your attention as one of the recipients of this missive. And I think that your actual content is overspiritualizing a very dreadful but normal occurance. I got saved by Jesus. I was baptized in His name. I joined a cult. To give "joining a cult" or following a cult leader such spiritual credentials such as baptism is a mistake. I do my best not to ascribe to ST or any of his designs any dignity or respect or spiritual significance as it would then give him what he has sought for the last 40 years....credence and credibility. I guess I am responding to your email and so look forward to your reply. m </p>
#109829 – 09/29/10 06:20 pm by Tod Burros
I accept that you don't see it or agree. That of course is your right. However I will say that I believe that to get healed from the effects of Cobu you must be able to see and admit to the depths of it's affects on you. So perhaps we have different ways of dealing with the effects of Cobu? But I attest that the way i have dealt with it has brought about lasting changes in my own soul. I wish you the very best in your way of dealing with it and pray that you be blessed and comforted.
#109830 – 09/29/10 06:50 pm by Jennifer Williams
To state it "unspiritually" I refer back to the explanations I received at Wellspring about how as young persons our human growth was stunted by the treatment in COBU and our ability to process emotions and thoughts and make rational choices was undermined. Those are effects that can pretty much mess up one's adulthood. Sure the weaknesses were there as youths but we were meant to mature and learn human life skill s as we progressed through life, and for the years we were under control of ST that was not happening. Thus the foolish or destructive choices many of us have made can be traced back to the psychological damage from years in COBU.
Jen [also below #109889 written 5 minutes later:]
In addition the effects of COBU may have been a continuation of other unhealthy relationship dynamics (one reason COBU could have "felt right"), so whatever problems were there when we were young were just made worse. Using myself as an example, my Dad was always "the man with the plan" you had to follow whether you liked it or not, he trained us to follow but not to make our own plan, so ST continued that pattern for me in my life. Jen
Hi Tod, then you'll have to clarify the use of the word "baptized." It is a matter of defining your terms if you want to be understood by others. In order to understand each other we must have a common standard by which to define words outside of ourselves. That standard is usually the dictionary & in the case of the word "baptism" it's how the Bible defines that term. It comes from a Greek word meaning "immersing," & in biblical terms baptized by water is used as a symbol of our being identified with Christ in His death & resurrection in Rom 6 & baptized into one body by one Spirit in 1 COR 12:13. Therefore IMO, Mike simply questioned your choice of the word, baptism, for in your use of it, it is unintelligible except perhaps to you & Dave Simmons.
#109838 by Tod
a reasonable point. But shouldn't baptism be understood easily by Christians? Not to mention the explanation that was part of the email. It wasn't just baptized into st there was some points to what that meant.
What is the biblical teaching of what baptism is? Perhaps we can agree on that and then move forward?
#109839 by Nancy responding to Mikes #109823 [see above]
good points MM. more than I had pondered, appreciated Nancy C....
#109845 by Nancy
I agree that the way Dave S. has used the word is not adequate for parle – the word carries a sense of unifying into the sacred, the purity of the immersion is not to be compared to the unity of our fellow sufferings under ST which was
negative. You might say something like "wow, you were really baptized by fire in the first few weeks here at the new job" and it could mean that you'd come through a hard time for the better and become unified with others, but to say we
were baptized into ST is sort of gross. I tried to appreciate that DS was trying to be poetic to give him the benefit of the doubt, but it not pleasing as a style to me and doesn't apply well. Sorry, it may just be the English geek in me
but it sucks, lol. Nancy C.
#109870 by Herm
Tod, I don't want to guess what you & Dave meant. Why not go the extra mile for us who are lesser in knowledge & understanding & speak plainly about what you & Dave S. meant by the use of the words "we were all baptized into Stewart Traill." Isn't this a reasonable request? Herm
#109871 by Tod
I didn't ask you to guess Herm I asked you what you understood baptism to be that maybe we could agree on that first of all. That should be a simple request no? And your comments below and Mike's allusions yesterday as well about lesser in
knowledge and understanding comes from a place I don't think is deserved. If you want to discuss the issue great. But I don't feel the need to be "heavy" and teach anyone anything they are not curious about enough to just ask me hey
what do you mean by this I don't understand where you are coming from? Without feeling the need to insult me or insinuate I am coming from an ungodly place as I believe you are doing below. Again I don't think this is too much to ask. I won't speak for Dave but I know my purpose in sharing information isn't to Lord it over anyone but to help brethren escape from the grip of stewart traill in peace for God and that person's sake alone. That is why I often finish my posts with thank you for considering my thoughts as I do yours.........
#109872 by Tod 09/30/10 1:46 pm
I didn't ask you to guess Herm I asked you what you understood baptism to be that maybe we could agree on that first of all. That should be a simple request no? And your comments below and Mike's allusions yesterday as well about lesser in
knowledge and understanding comes from a place I don't think is deserved. If you want to discuss the issue great. But I don't feel the need to be "heavy" and teach anyone anything they are not curious about enough to just ask me hey
what do you mean by this I don't understand where you are coming from? Without feeling the need to insult me or insinuate I am coming from an ungodly place as I believe you are doing below. Again I don't think this is too much to ask.
I won't speak for Dave but I know my purpose in sharing information isn't to Lord it over anyone but to help brethren escape from the grip of Stewart Traill in peace for God and that person's sake alone. That is why I often finish my posts with thank you for considering my thoughts as I do yours.........
#109875 by Herm
Tod, I think I already defined baptism according to the original Greek meaning and the dictionary & what it basically meant biblically in my first post. Perhaps you need to reread it to see if you agree on how it is defined. Herm
#109876 by Tod
Ok maybe I missed it Herm I will look a little later.
#109877 by Mike M 09/30/10 2:35 pm
Tod, I think the phrase "know your audience" would be helpful here. If we can imagine just for a moment that we are all here in a room and Dave, you say what you said and then sit down and here we all are........ well....don't you get the sense that Dave just dropped something on us and is now just sitting there and letting us try and make a determination......knowing the audience as ex-members of ST's cult.....wouldn't this be kind of a trigger? Herman, wasn't wrong to ask you to define your terms and you were not wrong to ask him what he meant.....but the fact that Dave, you are still here, I presume, well.....why don't just tell us plainly what you meant. Tod, should not be speaking for you...which is another ex-member trigger for me.... I think the lesser knowledge comment is deserved.....why would someone say something like that.?....go figure it out.....implies the listerner doesn't or wouldn't understand it right then and there. I would add that Herman is appropriately asking you or rather should be asking Dave to say what you mean.....Dave, you made the statement, and so the burden is on you to clarify....not for us to come running after you. For goodness sake, just write what you meant and let's all talk about it. It's not like my salvation or yours hangs on this. m
#109884 by Tod 09/30/10 4:58 pm
Mike as far as I know Dave was responding to you about your comments that some were not affected by st. I was not defending Dave. (btw it seems everytime I comment on anything related to him it is so easy to throw this out there) you and i had a conversation on this topic well before Dave interjected and after. You asked me directly what I thought of what you were saying about some not being affected and all I said was I agree with Dave that all were baptized into st and I have given many reasons why I think this independently from Dave. BTW I didn't see where you answered many of my points. A lot of people don't answer everything that is put out there so this is not a new phenomenon. You seemed to tag dave back in based on my agreeing with him but I read your email three times and I didn't see where you asked him a question. Rather I saw that you gave your opinion on his delivery of the message. That is my timeline and my thoughts on this.
#109885 by Tod 09/30/10
Yes Mike it does say exactly that! You said some were not affected by st. So you are saying you don't understand
right then and there because if you did you would never say something like some were not affected
So if you have a problem with Dave's delivery you could have responded to him instead of tagging onto my comment agreeing with the point. Then you turn it around and say I shouldn't be responding for Dave?? You tagged my comments not Dave's!!! So it remains that I agree with Dave's comments and you don't like his delivery. But I still don't see where you asked any questions and I don't see where you responded to the meat of what was posted which goes against your comments that some were not affected. If we separate things clearly then we can discuss in peace and agree or disagree. I won't be offended if you don't think all were baptized into st I just won't agree with you. Now that isn't so hard?
#109886 by Tod
Ok Herm I do see this. I think the term you use "immersed" is exactly the word I am thinking of. And I stand by my agreement with Dave that we all were immersed into st. His thoughts, his view on life, and his skepticism of other Christians. I think it is very fitting and true and from what you have been writing recently about your Cobu experiences you seem to say similar things. For me being in Cobu was all encompassing. I don't see how someone couldn't be affected. Now that is my opinion based both on my experiences personally but what I saw from each and every member I knew back when I was in. E Thanks
#109887 by Mike
there needs to be a rewind.....if Dave was responded to my "some were not affected" then he really should have said so.....I saw his "go and learn" comment as coming out of nowhere and going into nowhere......So let me be clear.....I made my comment that some were not affected.....Dave made his comment which I did not remotely perceive as some kind of "response"...and when you then wrote...I saw you as talking about discussing Dave's commentfurther..which I found odd because he, Dave, was the one who made the comment.....I did not see that you both were addressing the "some were not affected" comment.....All in all.....I still think if you Dave, could get on here and just make your point it would make things easier. Tod...no grrr from me on this....I think I just misunderstood who was speaking to whom when and then a bit put off by NOT ONLY how Dave wrote but what he wrote. M
#109890 by Tod [he also attached Dave's original #109797 and the one he ref to Mike
Mike I found the post. Your post directly says some were not affected by st. I don't know how it could be much clearer.
I think what we ex-members do about our conclusions if we arrive at conclusions is tell the truth...speak it...tell it to ourselves and others....current members might be persuaded.
Settle the matter....end the thing and establish a new understanding, specifically, allowing the Holy Spirit to directly impart His teaching, understanding, knowledge, wisdom....that the Holy Spirit be allowed to do what ST did in His place. I would say that this is for those who were affected by ST. Some were not...and so all of this is moot...but for those who were....we must...as I am reading Nehemiah.....rebuild. that is allow the Lord Jesus to repair us and we partner with Him for this reconstruction. M
#109904 – Dave posted on 10/01/10 @ 12:12 am [an explanation of the original post]
All were baptised into Stewart Traill; in every sense of the word
I was reading I Corinthians 10:1-3, verse two has the language: all were baptized into Moses and I considered:
Were not all in COBU baptized into Stewart Traill? Into his beliefs. Into his way of viewing things. Into his way of being to others. His doctrines, opinions, etc, and I decided to Go and learn what this means, to consider this, to consider what it means. What is baptism?
The language: Go and learn what this means, is a quote of Jesus that I say from time to time to my son and he understands that I am saying: consider this, check this out, think on it, throw it around for a while, expand upon it in your own time, and later we will discuss our thoughts on the matter. I shared this consideration with this board.
Were we not fully immersed into his belief system? Did we not surrender to his theology? To his authority? Were not all influenced by Stewart Traill? In a previous post [#109796] mm wrote that not all were affected, but I contend that in a household with an abusive alcoholic ALL in the household are affected, the ones physically or verbally abused as well as those who hide in the closet and hear the abuse. A sister I discussed the concept of "were we not all baptized into ST" quickly responded, "Yes, I sat under him, I listened to him, I learned Christianity from him, someone who missed grace, someone who missed who Jesus is, who missed peace, who didn't practice kindness, who mocked us and was offensive, I was committed to the example that he put forth, we imitated him who didn't imitate Christ.
Jesus said unless we eat and drink of Him [John 6] we would have no part in him, a hard saying for the disciples of Jesus' time, I believe that while we were in COBU we ate and drank of ST and unless we are able to see that and lift up the filth we all partook of, how can we be cleansed of it?
09/29/10 when discussing Mike Montoya’s response to Dave’s “All were baptized into Stewart Triall. In every sense of the word: his teaching, his concepts, his views on life, his skepticism of other Christians. Go and learn what this means. [#109797] CS’s stick #A-64 [16.01 min]
And what do you do with a clown? For the clown performs magic tricks and he tries to make the audience laugh. You wait until his act is over and every body applauds. But he is not asking a question. He says, “I wait for your reply” [mm] what is there to reply to? He’s all over the place. It sounds like you’re Jesus. But he is angry, more than anything else (CS: Yeah, his first reply was, “I got it sitting here”) I got it sitting here, and if Tod hadn’t brought up your name, he would have never written it, and again, he still did not ask you a question.
He is more upset in: “Go and learn what this means” more than anything else. For that post is self-explanatory. Go and learn is both a command AND a challenge. My children, your son understood exactly what this is talking about, “consider it, think on it, ponder it, look into it, find out what it means to be baptized into something”. Even the world understands this, when they say, “Baptized by Fire” that what they are talking about is drawing you into a situation so you can learn. But it is funny my children, this is why I call them ‘stupid’. And my daughter, your analogy about the drunken father with the 13 children, were all beaten, no they were not all beaten, some hid. But how can the child who hid in the closet or under the bed say they were not affected by the drunken father. [Observation: If they weren’t affected, why the need to hide?] It is Tom Foolery.
It is normal, he [mm] says to you, the way you do this, ‘I don’t like it’, too bad. And my son you will not explain it, for there is nothing to explain. It is self-explanatory. [CS: So we shouldn’t respond at all?] And when I show you to repeat it, you will repeat it again. I still say, “We were ALL baptized into Stewart Traill”
It would be like the guy saying, “Go and ponder this one” or “think on this one”, would he still be offended? He probably would be. [CS: I think it was because it was a scriptural quote.] It wouldn’t matter what it was. [CS: Well, they like to find fault with Dave.] They’re gonna find fault regardless. [CS: cause they’re fault finders] The fault finders find fault, for they are looking for fault. And my daughter you were right, the reason why the internet was so quiet, was because they were talking to one another on their telephones and on their text messages. They do not want to hear it. He admits he was in a cult. He admits he followed a cult leader, ‘but I don’t want to give Stewart Traill credence’, what in the world are you talking about Mike? You make no sense.
Pseudo-spiritual, and he brings up the term, ‘dumb masses’ [CS: It’s kind of like, the bigger the web, the less they have to face, let me ‘oh what a wonderful web we weave, when at first we have chosen to deceive’ something like that. Like, let me twist and turn, instead of examining the simple statement, they want to judge Dave for saying it, they want to beat the messenger, judgment, attacking the writer, fault finding, but in all of their: “it’s pseudo-this, it’s pseudo-that” “it’s taking a term that’s very dear to all of our hearts and dirtying it” “it’s doing this, it’s doing that” it’s like, you throwing in the kitchen sink and you loose the point. They don’t discuss the point itself, they’re judging Dave.] INDEED!
And my daughter, you’ve touched on an important point, what’s lost in translation is, [CS: the simple statement] The simple statement that, ‘You were part of this guy.’ ‘You were part of his system’ [CS: a part of his lack of grace] ‘A part of his lack of grace’ [CS: wisdom, patience, peace] ALL that came with it. [CS: Submitting to a man.] For, your mother once said, “Why are you giving that man all of your money?” And if they don’t get this one, how will they get the other one that I will write. [CS: They’re not gonna get it, because they’re gonna just judge it and judge Dave so they don’t have to look at the truth of the word.] INDEED!
For they don’t want to get it, I opened up by saying, [CS: all were baptized into Stewart Traill] “How do you deal with a clown?” “How do you deal with a clown who does funny tricks?” For Mike is also a clown, like his brother Christopher Blaise. [Phone rings: it’s Tod and we pick up and put phone on speaker so he can also hear] For Chris and Mike are similar. And Mike admitted that he was like Chris, because they are both clowns. And clowns are usually shallow humanly. “Oh, why does he have to say this, it’s not helpful in my journey, oh Dave, just please go away, go away Dave, it would be nice if you didn’t post here. Clowns and robbery, the clown does his magic tricks while your pocket is being picked.
Rob Michelle said Stewart stopped being funny and he started being the marionette, but this is not funny, for they refuse to yield their hearts to the Lord God and His Christ so they can be healed of this sickness.
“Leave me alone, and let me go on my journey. It’s not helpful. You are over spiritualizing something. I want to do my interview. I want to interview somebody” [mm] and Tom Pierrone was right, “What do you think you’re going to get?” [mm:] Oh well Tom, what if this, you know, you know the answer already, it might change some hearts, good luck with that one.”
CS Stick #A-65 [41.09 min] [CS: We’re reading I Corinthians 10 and we got down to vs. 15 and Lord spoke.
1Co 10:15 I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say.
He says, [1Co 10:15] “I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves” all who came from Egypt were under the headship of Moses, were they not? [CS: Yes] But did all act faithfully? No, they did not. Some of them put the Lord to the test. And my son, Moses and Christ were alike in every way. And my son, it rots the bones, when wonders and signs are done, time and time again, and the people still put you to the proof. It made Moses’ soul bitter, it robs the bones my son. You have not experienced it, but you will.
It broke my sons heart when they still demanded more proof, after he had shown them sign after sign after sign. But he says, Paul here says, ‘you judge for yourselves’ and my daughter, this is what happens to one whose heart has been robbed. I told you, their hearts have been stolen.
And so, he takes offense, because he’s looking for an offense. [mm] If you said, ‘Judge for yourself’ he would have taken offense at it. And your perception my daughter is correct, he is speaking for several people here. He is relaying their thoughts. Were you hurt in the church of untended hearts, yes or no? Were you abused in the church of Stewart Traill, yes or no? Did you join a cult,
yes or no? Were you influenced by his teachings, yes or no?
And the reason why you don’t want to explain this one, is because they have to explain it for themselves. And Mike is proving that his heart and his mind are not open. Nancy also proved the same thing, she said it, no games, no, I disagree, though she didn’t tell you what she disagreed about. For again, she knows that you have said something profound, and even Mike knows it; yet he’s not going to give you that up, because we have to continue to disagree with Dave Simmons.
[CS: It’s popular] INDEED!
We must continue to disagree, because he has a clue.
1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a
participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
1Co 10:17 Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.
But I say, that COBU is the body of Steward Traill [DS: Wow! Yes!] and all partook, for he was it’s head, he was its director, he was its guide, he was its executioner, the sentencer, it was what all took of, everyone who went in ate of him [Dave: Wow] ate of what he put on the table, passed out, delivered, spoke, inferred, suggested. When you read a book, you are influenced by the book you read. [Dave: Indeed] When you sit under someone day in and day out, you are influenced by the person that you are sitting under. [very loud:] THEY SAID, ‘THIS IS A HARD SAYING, that we must eat and drink of the Lord Jesus Christ, but I am saying, ‘If Stewart Traill got it all wrong: no grace, no peace, no patience, no gentleness, then how are his followers going to obtain these things?’ And it is denial not to recognize it. And it is ‘no hope’ to be freed from it, if you do not face it. They are saying [loud] “NOOOOOOOOOOO, I don’t want to say I did that, I’m not in that, I wasn’t in that ~ I went to JE-S-US [Dave: laughed, oh man] I could discern that Jesus wasn’t there. I knew Jesus apart from Stewart.”
Did they not all partake? [Dave: Yes] Did they not all execute his will? [Dave: Yes, yes] So then, who were they baptized into?
[Dave: Stewart Traill]
1Co 10:24 Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.
And if your neighbor is suffering, and if your neighbor has no way of escape, and you have a way of escape, is there no obligation? He who has the worlds goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart to him, how does this bless the brother?[1 Jn. 3:17]
I am saying, that those who were baptized into this, and those who partook of this, are influenced, overwhelmed, overcome, unable to get themselves out of it, as Nancy has countless times said.
[Dave: Yup] ‘I went to a healing ministry and never got healed from this, why? Because she never touched how deeply she bought in. [Dave: yup] If there is no recognizing of it, then there is no seeing of it.
And I am saying also my children, that it would be a good thing for you to have a Bible Study in the midst of the judgment, as Jesus went into the temple and preached, in the midst of the Pharisees trying to kill him, he went up to the feast and he taught in the temple. And others standing around said, ‘Is not this who they seek to kill?’ And will they not marvel and say, ‘Is not this he who they all speak ill of?’ But I say to you, ‘Perhaps some might hear, from a fringe. Perhaps some might see what your fellowship really is, for they have not seen it, nor have they known it.
And as Jesus’ words were upsetting to the disciples, so your words are upsetting to this people. For it begs to question, what they have begged not to question. As Steve Hilton was terrified by the idea, or the presumption of the idea, so I say, they are terrified of the idea, for they think it will cast them back into doubt, [Dave: humm] for they have come to some semblance of peace, and yet it is pseudo. I am saying, it is pseudo peace, for anyone who does not recognize how tarnished they truly became, cannot be relieved. So, to say they have peace is a pseudo peace.
For he who raises questions, is he who has questions. He, who raises doubts, is he who has doubts. He who says, ‘for arguments sake’ is he who desires to argue. [Dave: Yes] He, who finds fault, is he who is looking for fault. For he who seeks, finds. If you seek to ‘FIND’ fault, you will FIND fault. For the Lord God gives what you seek. [Dave: Indeed] For are you not human? [Dave: Yes] Do you not have many weaknesses? [Dave: Yes] Well consider this, who is really open to understanding where you’re coming from and having an objective conversation regarding it? And you can ask that. ‘No objective conversation, just denial? Thank you for your thoughts.’
Dave had asked what I saw when I gave the prophesy about having a Bible Study, that at a future reunion that perhaps we, right at the reunion, should just go about our normal daily routine of getting into the Word, getting into the Bible, as a group and then the Lord spoke through Dave below. [Cynthia: we must love them even if they are fault finders, even if they are unable to have a discussion. We can’t just be pointing out their weaknesses, ‘No objective conversation, just denial’ that’s argumentative. Dave: Yeah, I didn’t say that one, you did. CS: I know, I’m just pointing it out to myself. CS read: Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, that’s why they were offended by the way.|
And perhaps the next time we will do so, if the situation presents itself. For we learned my children, something important, that they pretended as though you were not there [at the reunion]. Did you notice my daughter? [Cynthia: Yeah] INDEED!
So since they pretend that you are not there, than we can still do what we always do, we open up our Bibles and we start to read. And if I speak, I speak. And if I don’t, I don’t. And when Ed [Gastor] put his hands in the air, panic seized all of them. [CS: It was a recognition of the Holy Spirit.] Panic seized them my children, for it was the most interesting and important highlight of the reunion for them. For you my son, had had enough, in fact, you didn’t want to go back there again that day.
For now my son, you have been given freedom to come and go as you see fit. You and your wife can come and go as you see fit. And when you go down to see Stewart Traill, it will be the same thing, you will be able to come and go as you see fit. And they will know it. You can post on this list as you see fit and you don’t have any compunction to argue with this people, it is a good thing I say. You are learning much. Your wife is learning much about the people you are going to be dealing with.
How do you deal with the clown, is what I asked. How do you deal with one who is double minded? How do you deal with one who is crafty? How do you deal with one who walks in falsehood? And so on. How do you deal with a round about? The Lord will show you what you need and how to deal with the ones that you encounter.
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.
Eph 4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
Ministry gifts are designed to up build the church and who is ‘the church’ [CS: believers] INDEED. The believers, those who pursue and follow after Christ, but how can you attain manhood, how can you attain womanhood in Christ, if your growth has been stunted? Chris appeared to you as a midget in his room. What is a midget, but one whose growth has malfunctioned.
So therefore, since Christ is the head, Paul said you would be severed from Christ if you received circumcision, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Indeed this is a strange statement and so, you cannot attain to the unity, in to Christian maturity because you never knew Christ. It speaks of cunning, craftiness, deceitful wiles, you are able to recognize and see those who have other designs than those that Christ had in mind.
“To the measure of the stature of the FULLNESS” come into his fullness my children. Come into his fullness. And when you come into his fullness he says, so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with anything that comes along, so if A is true and B is true, than how could you say next is P or next is Z?
I desire them, for it says to be eager to maintain the unity of the spirit. Be eager, for the spirit is indeed willing, the spirit is eager to maintain the unity. And so, when you try to provoke these to love and good works. For my daughter you do love them and my son, you do love them, for if you didn’t you wouldn’t put up with this kind of foolishness. For you patiently wait for them to ask you a simple question. And even when he called you, he wasn’t asking you a simple question, for they wish that you would go away and not talk this talk; but the love of Christ compels you to try to reach those who are hurting. They are hurting. Mike is hurting, but yet he says, “This isn’t helpful to me in my journey.” It would be great my son and daughter, if one of them said, “Dave, I don’t get this, what do you mean?” Jennifer in her offhanded way, from Well Springs is acknowledging, ‘Yes, I was affected’ this is probably the closest comment that you’ll get to something more real.
But notice, they don’t like to talk about what you’re talking about. And it doesn’t mean you are better than they, you are saying, ‘I was like you’ ‘I was influenced’ ‘I was hurt by Stewart Traill’ ‘I used to defend the creep’ but he says it’s a mistake Dave, to over spiritualize this. No my son, it is not a mistake, for Deborah got one thing right, you always challenged her, Cynthia always challenged her. For a truth seeker, if they are truly a truth seeker, loves challenges.
How do you bring truth to a world that’s filled with falsehood and darkness, and all sorts of evil and wickedness? ‘Dave, I think what you said is profound’ would have been a good place for someone to say it. Jim LaRue saw the comment, but he said nothing. Many see it, and many agree with it. Just because those who are loud are speaking, they are not speaking for everyone. For let the word go out, you do not know what will prosper, this or that. At least you can say, ‘I did what the Lord my God told me to do, my flesh was uncomfortable, I think they look at me as a hit and run person’ sew the seed, sew your bread, sew the Word and let’s see what grows, let’s see prospers, let’s see what comes of it.
[Cynthia made a detailed explanation of the original prophesy the Lord asked us to post and making a possible reply to Mike, who asked for some response and the Lord spoke:]
And you are reiterating the same thing I had you post on Tuesday. [CS: I know that] There is nothing different. [CS: I know that] He does not deserve a response. [CS: But I’m talking about the viewers] The viewers didn’t ask for one, nor did he.
This is how you deal with ones like this, until they are willing, you do not give up, for you are opening yourself up for more criticism. Helpful? Offended? I’m not offended, what are you talking about? [CS: Well, he (mm) did mention helpful, I took out offended.] Oh, the Lord said this?! You don’t win my daughter. [CS: Yeah] You don’t win with one who is dishonest. They already know it. Mike knows it.
[CS: I like what I wrote.] I like what you wrote as well. Your husband likes it, but they don’t deserve it because they didn’t ask for it. ‘Go and learn’ is a challenge and a command. [CS: Well they took offense that Dave was challenging and commanding.] It is not Dave that is challenging; it is the Lord God and His Christ. [CS: But they don’t see it as that because it wasn’t couched that way.]
They wouldn’t have seen it regardless, even if I did say, ‘Thus says the Lord’ what did Ave Hurley say?
[CS: She took offense.] ‘I don’t like it when they say, ‘Thus says the Lord.’ So how do you win? You don’t, because they don’t want you to win.
For this is a clock cleaning statement. It is a clock cleaner. I explained what I was talking about here, but notice the crickets. On Friday you will post: To everyone who responded to my post: ‘All were baptized into Stewart Traill. In every sense of the word: his teachings, his concepts, his view on other Christians’ thank you for sharing your thoughts and I still stand behind my statement. Consider what I have said. As I still ponder this statement. [the end of #A-65 – 41.09 minutes total]
And once again, once again they seem to forget the obvious, ‘We need to determine standards’ Herman says, ‘We need to define what baptism is’ as if you don’t know, as if they don’t know. You seem to have gotten it quite easily didn’t you Jan? [Jan: What is it? What was that? Cynthia: The Lord said, You seemed to have gotten it easily, you understood what it meant. Jan: Yes I did, right.] And how were you baptized into Stewart Traill Jan? [Jan: I learned everything. How to be, how to, my heart…] INDEED! In other words, you sat under his feet. [Jan: Yes and I gave myself willingly to that.] So, if that is true, than how in the world could you say, ‘I was never affected by Stewart Traill’? [CS: As some people have said] As these ones are saying. [Jan: It’s ridiculous.] INDEED! [CS: They’re not owning…] It begs the question of how stupid they are and how much denial they are in. [Jan: Yes, denial, ‘I never grew up in an alcoholic family.] Robyn said, ‘I can’t deny what happened to me, for if she did, she would be a liar. [Jan: Robyn ya mean? Dave: Yes. CS: In other words, she owned it. Jan: Yes. She did, yeah, but I could tell it was new to her to see that.] And so, when the Lord God comes and makes these posts, it is not you who are saying these things, but I am trying to awaken those who are asleep. Those who are need to dying. [CS: So he’s provoking them purposefully] AWAKE! AWAKE! [Jan: Yes, to look at it.] I don’t come to them and talk to them in flowery language. [Jan: Yeah] It does them no good. They do not have because they do not ask (Jas 4:2). [Jan: Yes, if they would just say, ‘Show me Lord’ CS: But they ain’t gonna say, ‘Show me Dave’] But they’re not gonna say, ‘Show me’ anything! I don’t want it Nancy said. [CS: No, Nooo, NOOOO!] It’s making a simple point. I have explained myself. All were baptized into Stewart Traill, in every sense of the word, his teachings, his concepts, his skepticisms of other Christians. What he is, you became; but this seems to Mike and the others that this is a hard saying, why? Because they are in denial. [Jan: Yes, I see that] How can you say that you were not influenced by your mother and your father? [Jan: Um hum] How could you say it? [Jan: If you were in denial] The point Jan is, you can’t. You could, but it wouldn’t be true. [CS: Well Stewart was like our spiritual father] INDEED! [Jan: Yes, I looked at him like that, yeah] And this is a big deal here. And they are making much of it. And we will speak more of it. We will study baptism. We will study many more things to make it clearer, says the Lord. Go in peace and do not be afraid. [CS: OK Dave: That was great Jan that you got that. That was Jan Hilton on the phone regarding this post that has really CS: rocked the universe Dave: rocked the universe. It’s been a Jack in the Box, this has been, the great Herman Weiss has shown up and he too is in denial. 9/29/10]
[end of A-66 06.29 minutes total]
[09/30/10, Regarding Mike Montoya’s message board regarding the post that we made on the 9/27/10 [#109797] All were baptized into Stewart Traill. In every sense of the word: his teaching, his concepts, his view on life, his skepticism of other Christians. Go and learn what this means.
My son said to the Pharisees, ‘Go and learn what this means’ again, the statement that you have made is a simple statement. Chuck Unger understood what you are saying and he expounded on it, he drove the ball out of the park. And he said, is it a negative or positive, but the better question is, ‘What do you do from here’ now that you have been poisoned, where do we go? It was the question that Tod asked, ‘Where do we go from here?’ And how are you going to get from point A to point B.
For they all seem to agree and accept that he missed grace, but the conversation cannot stop there, the book has not been written, it is not complete, it is an incomplete novel, or it is an incomplete history. So, you are saying, ‘We were all affected by Stewart Traill’. He didn’t ask you a question; therefore I have trained you not to give answers if they do not ask questions.
What they are saying is, ‘I don’t like you Dave Simmons’, that’s what they’re saying, ‘I don’t like you Dave Simmons’ why? Why, for you could say, and call them on the carpet, which you won’t, ‘Why don’t you like me Mike? You barely talk with me. Why don’t you like me Nancy, you haven’t talked to me at all, but you had no problem opening up your ear to a scoffer, who conversed with you for years. So it’s funny to me, and Chris filled his ear, so it’s funny to me Nancy, it’s funny to me Mike, and you too Herman, that you didn’t understand it, but you came out fighting. You don’t get it, fine, I accept that, but there is nothing to get.
can you say, ‘We were not influenced?’ How can you say, ‘We were not damaged?’ How can you say his teaching, his spirit, that you were not affected? You could say, some were not hurt as much as others were, that would be true. And some of the people on the board, like Kevin said,
‘My father abused us, I saw him beat my mother, I saw him smack her around, I saw him rape my mother in front of me’ and so on, but that child cannot say, ‘I wasn’t hurt’.
You are saying, ‘we were all influenced, we were all touched by his poison. And if you can say with a straight face that Stewart Traill missed grace, and then out of another corner of your mouth and say, ‘Oh, well some weren’t affected’ oh, well I know somebody who won’t know Mike, that your statement is false. You have made a false statement. Your statement is incorrect. They were your spiritual brothers and sisters in the Lord. You left your family to be a part of his family, his body, his system. How much more can we say? There’s nothing to explain.
You’re not trying to get anything over on them. You’re not saying that you’re better than they are; which is what they think. “Oh, well Dave Simmons thinks that he’s better than we are.” No, Dave Simmons does not. Dave Simmons wants to see you free from the grip, that’s what Dave Simmons is after, nothing more and nothing less. How do you get free from the beast? How do you get free from the sick mindset? How do you undo the damage that has been done? And it is deep my son, the virus runs deep, it runs very deep and many don’t want to touch it. They don’t want to ask you any questions. They wish you would go away.
Well, Dave Simmons made a trigger point. Many are not speaking. Many are not speaking, at least not openly. How do we get our hands untied, the songwriter says, how? If you admit, if you admit that he missed grace, he admitted that he missed grace, Jay Franklin in the interview said it, ‘This man told us to forget everything that we were taught’, for us to throw everything out the window, the workbooks, everything, ‘I am the reason why you are not married’ and ‘I think I’m the reason why there are no gifts of the spirit in our church’. This, my son, is a big admission.
It’s a big admission, ‘Oop’s I missed it, ok ah, and you can talk about me forgiving you and oh, but I must crush and squash counsel’ and why do I use the word counsel? I use counsel my son because, at that point the Holy Spirit of God was saying to them: ‘Here is your opportunity to walk away from here scot free, with no obligation. He should have given them their release papers that day, and it would have said much about him. It would have said much, but this is how he crushed counsel, because he did not allow them to vent.
He did not allow them to pour out their frustration upon him. Yes my son, he crushed counsel. He crushed counsel and he crushed, did not allow them the ability to speak openly about what he had done to them. He was in the wrong here. He was in the wrong. He was in the wrong here, and the wrong was, after his great admission, he said, ‘Your basis is grace’ but the point that Herman and the earlier people realized is this, you can say about grace all you want, you can say he talked about it here or there, but it doesn’t mean my son that you have submitted to it, submitted to the Lord Jesus Christ. He was filled with grace and truth; he was filled with grace and truth. The law was given to Moses, it says, but grace and truth came through the Lord Jesus Christ, and as you said, if he missed grace, then he missed Jesus. Not a barn door Jennifer, worse. If you are off a hair in trying to send a rocket to the moon, you miss the moon, so he was in another planet would be a better analogy. He missed the master. As he is, so are they.
[Jan Hilton called and was discussing a phone call she had and the
Lord spoke to her through Dave]
[Jan: And I was thinking about it, it’s like I knew what she did, she hit me, ya know how you always put names on what they do, and that was like a hit and run, but I just lifted it up to the Lord, cause I was aggravated by it, ya know?]
But it was a defense mechanism my daughter. It was a way for her to control the conversation. [Jan: um hum, ok] She didn’t like where it was going, so she didn’t allow you to go where you were going to go. [Jan: um hum] So it wasn’t necessarily intentionally that she was being nasty, [Jan: ok] but it was putting her in an awkward position and she saw where it was headed and she did her version of damage control, ‘I take full responsibility’ [Jan: but she didn’t even ask me, I always think she thinks I’m not taking responsibility, that’s what I thought she was saying to me ‘Well you need to do it too, I took it, you need to do it’] Well, she didn’t say that. [Jan: ok] We must respond to what they say, not what we think they are saying. It is very important that you understand that concept. It they ask you no questions, you give them no answers. Mike Montoya is claiming that Dave Simmons didn’t answer my question, well, by now you will know that Dave doesn’t answer questions that nobody asks him, he doesn’t feel the need to explain himself, unless someone asks you. Those who are this honest will take the simplest concepts and make much over them.
But I will say this, my sister, my friend, you and your husband were at the grace meeting, were you not? [Jan: yes] And how did it make you feel, when he admitted that he was wrong. [Jan: I didn’t feel that it was a real admission. I didn’t take it, I didn’t think that he was very sincere about it, after he said it, it was still the same as usual, what changed, nothing changed.] Then I will ask you another question, ‘How did Stewart Traill crush counsel?’ [Jan: He, because he did not allow us to ask questions, therefore, if we had any questions we kept them quiet and we never were allowed to ask anything.] You have answered truly my daughter, you have answered honestly, because this may be the next question that will go up on this message board and it will make them go crazy again. You are right when you say, His facilitation of the grace meeting, what was the grace meeting about? [Jan: It was about Stewart admitting that he missed grace, which was, he missed everything. To me, to miss grace was to miss Jesus.] Indeed, you are right, but I say again, what was the grace meeting about? Who was it about? [Jan: Stewart] Indeed! It was about him. It was always about him. [Jan: That’s true] He did not care how you felt [Jan: Nope] because you had just answered the question, ‘How did he crush counsel?’ and I will use Nancy as an analogy, lets say that Nancy came up to you and she said to you, ‘Jan, I have something to say to you, but Jan I don’t you to speak, I don’t want any response from you Jan, I just want you to sit here and eat it, ok?’ and you would say, ‘Well wait a minute Nancy’ ‘No Jan, you can’t question me, you can’t require of me, you can’t ask me anything, I don’t want to discuss anything, I’m gonna read this speech, ah Jan, I stole your mink coat, I stole fifty thousand dollars, I made your daughters do some bad things and we cut up your valuable paintings and we wore your best stuff and, ya know, we just threw it in the trash can and lets discuss how you’re gonna forgive me’ [Jan: Um hum] What would you think of that? [Jan: I would think that it was very nasty and that she didn’t care at all about me or anything, but that she just wanted to relieve herself] Indeed. And then she would turn around and say, ‘OK, Jan, now we’re friends again’ [Jan: right] Ok, now I said I’m sorry, ok now, let’s go back to business as usual, has anything changed? [Jan: No] But where does it put you? [Jan: What does it prove to me?] Where does it put you? [Jan: It puts me away from her, I don’t want to be around somebody like that, I’ve been dumped on] Indeed. And this is what happened at that grace meeting. [Jan: Stewart dumped all over everybody] He dumped all over everybody and he crushed counsel. The Lord God and his Christ gave him the opportunity to give the brothers and sisters their release papers, but he did not do it.
But the important thing to remember is, counsel was crushed. [Cynthia: Blessings never went out] because, he was saying, ‘I am wrong, but I am not wrong, just forgive me and lets go back to what we normally do’ and when Jay Franklin said to him, ‘Brothers and sisters, this man is coming from pride’ we were just told to forget everything we’ve learned and so here the divorce paper that he had written that day, when the Lord God and His Christ was hoping he would say, ‘Brothers and sisters, it’s my fault, I have sinned against you, I have sinned against the Lord God and his Christ, you are free to go to where ever you desire to go. This is a serious matter. Everyone here, you are welcome to discuss it. Did he do this? [Cynthia: Nope, he held everybody hostage] because it was not in his heart to do it. He feared. He feared greatly.
When John Bevilacqua saw him in that Dunkin Donuts, he was teetering and tottering and he had no one to turn to, for he feared that they were going to unleash upon him and the test started at the brothers meetings, and so in the end, Jay Franklin proved him to be a liar. [Jan: Dave, were you at that meeting? Dave: No, I was not, he told me not to go to the meeting [Jan: oh that’s right] and I did not go to the meeting, I saw no need to go to it.] And so here we are, and many left that day, many left, but his greatest fear was that all would leave him [Cynthia: Which they should have] And we were hoping that they would have got up and all left, but the important thing to remember is that he crushed counsel, does it seem like a hard saying? [Jan: No] but many will think that this is a hard saying when it goes on the message board. [Cynthia: If you’re still there honey]
How did Stewart Traill crush counsel? In the day that he proclaimed that he was in error, those were his words that he was in error. He said, I am the reason why the brothers and sisters are not married. I am the reason why there are no gifts in the spirit in this place. [Cynthia: He admitted that?] Did you not hear him say it? [Jan: No, I didn’t hear him say that, I don’t remember that. Cynthia: I wasn’t even there, what; do you have a tape Dave? Dave: I think so. Jan: It was a long time ago.] It was a long time ago, I say, but really not that long ago.
Ask your husband when you get the time and you record it and say, ‘Steve, how did it make you feel?’ and ‘How did Stewart Traill crush counsel on the day that he said he missed grace, that he was in error and so on and so on.’ He was saying, especially when Diane Jacquay stood up to question and what did he do? [Jan: He did something like a weakness on her and smashed her with it, I don’t remember a lot, but I remember he put her down. Cynthia: Yeah, he smashed her. Jan: But I remember he put her down.]
He put her down and he was sending a message, what message was he sending? [Jan: If you question me, I will put you down, you will be shattered, or] Indeed. She was humiliated.
[Jan: Humiliated, yeah. Cynthia: And whatever Stewart said went throughout the ranks, so she was also excommunicated.] She was repeating something he had said himself; those were his words, not her words. [Cynthia: She was quoting him and he denied it, as usual] For he had showed that he had not repented, that nothing had changed. Well you were glad I did, with his arrogant talk. So, brothers and sisters were just given a sentence of death, for that’s what they were given, but I want you to shut up, like that analogy I gave you about Nancy. [Jan: um hum, I can do whatever I want to you] I can do whatever I want to you and I dare you to complain and if you do complain, I’m gonna smack you around some more. [Cynthia: Where does he get off like that?]
It was like the woman that was being raped and the rapist says to her, ‘Why are you screaming, shut up, [Cynthia: I’m not done] why are you screaming, what are you screaming about? [Jan: you’re enjoying this] If you keep screaming I will keep smacking you until you are quiet, for that is what he did that day and the preceding days. [Cynthia: So it was like a rape?] Indeed, it is like being raped and then they say to you, ‘What are you crying for?’ ‘What are you belly aching about?’ Well, you just hurt me to no end.
So, when John Doherty tried to have meetings to discuss what had happened to them, what did he do? He silenced them, they were silenced. Shut up, I don’t want to hear it. This is the behavior or one who is a vile specimen, vile. And it has nothing to do with the Lord God and His Christ, nothing. For the ones who left that day, they finally said, ‘Oh, thank God, I’m out of here’ for he saw it coming, he knew they were going to leave. It would be foolish to continue to sit under one like this, for some felt that they had no where else to go. [Cynthia: Because he got them to disown their families. Jan: Um hum, that’s why I keep trying to write Liz a birthday card every year, let her know that I’m around if she ever needs help] But this is a difficult business, for the disease and the poison run deep. [Cynthia: Even the ones that are out defend it] Indeed. [Cynthia: that’s sad]
It is a sickness that needs to be excised; it needs to be put to death. For the Lord Jesus Christ is filled with grace, for they have been starved of many things. [Cynthia: They don’t know how to show grace anyway, I was thinking about Mike and Nancy]
And the question remains, if you say he missed grace and you agree that he missed grace, or we could plug the word in, Jesus, then I will use this analogy, ‘Jennifer said, ‘He missed the barn door’, it’s worse, I will say, ‘If the astronauts plot the course for the moon and they are off by a certain amount, where does the rocket go? It goes into the vacant space, it misses their target. So I will say that Stewart Traill missed the planet, for the barn door is being kind, for he missed the planet earth and he missed the moon, but he asked me, he said that he made a mistake, try pulling that on any other person in there and see what will happen to your head, but he’s special, and he said he was sorry and our basis is grace now, praise God brother, praise God’ nothing changed. It was the same the day, as it was the previous day and the next day and the next.
‘I know I’m going to hell, but Jesus loves me’ what kind of madness is that? [Jan: I know] What kind of madness is that? [Jan: That’s crazy] It’s utter madness. [Jan: And to make your children repeat it, standing on a chair, repeating that! It’s ridiculous.] but this is what it has become. A den of all foul things, foul, it is foul. They have been abused and they say that the Lord God has abused me, but the Lord does not abuse his children. The Lord waits patiently to bless them, to comfort them, to fill them with good things. That he take the voice of the oppressor out of their ear, for I told you my son that this would be a difficult task. It is hard to preach peace and it is hard for them to receive blessing. [Dave: Today is September 30th, 2010, Thursday; Jan Hilton on the phone and my wife came in later.] [CS file #A-67 45:45 minutes/seconds]
And what does it show? [CS: That they are all evil, I don’t know.] It simply says this, I said to you, you will not explain it, do you see why I said that statement? [CS: Well because they really like picking stuff apart, but they don’t really find real conclusions.] Mike said, ‘Go and learn’ was going nowhere, but notice what he is doing. [CS: He’s still fault finding] They are stirring away from the statement. I explained the statement. [CS: Yeah, I saw that] The statement was made and was given an example and you could add other things to it, as Jan Hilton said, ‘I sat under him’ ‘I sat at his feet’ ‘I learned everything about Christianity from him’ by a word they make you out to be an offender. Well it’s gross Dave, I appreciate the poetics, but poetics is a side issue, it is not an issue that was even discussed. [CS: It is about Stewart] It is about Stewart Traill and how they devoted themselves to him, that was what it was about. ‘Tell us what you mean?’ what more is there to say? And if you explain it, more back slap, more back lash, so you will say, ‘I stand by my statement’ I have explained myself very clearly. We were reading First Corinthians 10, ‘All were baptized into Moses’ ‘All passed under the cloud, all passed into the sea’ The Holy Spirit is showing Paul a different way of being submerged into, being devoted to a system. It seems not to make sense, the statement seems to be thrown in out of no where, and yet chapter 10 is all connected with the Lords table, with foods offered to idols and so on. And so they find it hard, this is a simple statement, it is not a hard statement. [CS: they find it a hard saying] But they find it a hard saying. It’s hard for them to hear it, ‘But what do you mean by baptism?’ and even the definition, Bob SanPasquel made a poke at that, you do not win with people who are dishonest is the point. You do not win. So let’s try to make Dave Simmons look really, really bad. So if you had trouble with this statement, the rest of the statements are easier to digest, his skepticism of Christians, his teachings, they were all affected with his teachings. What if you would have just said, ‘We were all baptized by Stewart Traill’? and no explanation attached to it? They would have found fault regardless. And even though Mike seems to be asking a question now, he’s not really asking a question, but what is he doing my daughter? [CS: He’s finding fault, he’s picking, he’s poking, he’s nastifying, he’s not being very gentle] He’s trying to trap you. He’s hoping that you are filled with words like they are. Because Nancy Coogan gave herself away, she slipped and said, ‘There’s things I didn’t ponder’ if you look at them carefully, you can see the machinations in their head, because this one has got them all worked up, for it was my purpose in doing so. Notice how Tom is quiet? [CS: Yep] It checks them my children, it checks them. What did you mean? What did you mean? Notice they didn’t come out with that right away? What did you mean, we’re trying to guess, no, there’s nothing to get. This is a self explanatory, self explained statement. Paul says in first Corinthians 10:1-4 [Cynthia read:]
1Co 10:1 I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
1Co 10:2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1Co 10:3 and all ate the same supernatural food
1Co 10:4 and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they
drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
When you are baptized into something, you are what? Attached to something, you have become a part of something. Baptism is a big deal. When you got married, why is a public confession made? [CS: It’s made openly because you want it to be an open thing, you want it to be acknowledged] Indeed! [CS: You want to say, ‘I’m doing this, I’m proud of this, I stand for this, I believe in this.]
I belong to you and you belong to me, everybody, we are a couple, hands off, to the women and to the men, hands off, we are one. So you are joined together in a public declaration of ownership. He talks about supernatural food, a lot can be said about baptism, but it’s talking about what they had committed themselves to, in their heart and in their soul and in their mind, and in their body.
[Dave: Today is September 30th, 2010, that was in response to some of the gobblty gook that’s gone on over this statement: All were baptized into Stewart Traill that I posted on line on 9/27]
And indeed they will put pressure on you, as the stakes are raised and the stakes will be raised, whether you want them to be or not, and in fact, this post here has raised them higher, because they don’t want their chains to be removed. This statement is self explanatory, it needs no explanation, Jan was not coached to give the response that she gave. The heart longs for flowing streams, it craves after peace if its in a healthy environment, but what do these people crave, by their posts, what do they crave? [Cynthia: Argumenting] Arguments. [Cynthia: Debates] Debates.
Foolishly thinking that it will bless them, it gives them no blessing. And they have the nerve to ask you what the definition of baptism means? How foolish? Why would you come up with your own definition of something? “For Dave thinks he’s better than we are” was what Beth Davies said at one point. “He was wounded like everybody else” Beth, that is true, you are absolutely correct, but you are including yourself here ~ “we were all hurt by Stewart Traill” “we were all influenced” and the like. I gave them examples: concepts, skepticism, what more do they want? Fill in your own blanks as Jan Hilton did: I sat under him, I sat under his feet, she said. Everything I knew about Christianity I learned from him. What is so hard about that? Tell us what you meant? I want to fight with you Dave Simmons, I want to pick a fight. If they were smart, if they were wise, what should they have done? Dave, I don’t get what you’re talking about. I don’t really understand it. Maybe I’ll send him a private email, or maybe off list I’ll ask him for his phone number or here’s my phone number Dave you know, can you please discuss this further with me. [Cynthia: No, they want to fight with you on the list.] No, you didn’t get any of that, and you will not get any of it. I wanted to show them where they live and I wanted to show you, further, who you are dealing with. You said my daughter, ‘What a tangled web we weave, when we put our hearts to deceive’. It is a heart issue. They often in the world say, ‘It was great marriage between Ford and Good Year’ what they were saying was that they became partners together, they supported each other. You and your husband have supported each other, in every sense of the way, emotionally and spiritually, physically. AGREE with God and be at peace. Baptism is an agreement. Agree with God. Agree with Stewart Traill and you get more pain and more heart ache, more suffering, more disappointment. So what Mike said was, ‘Go and learn’ was going nowhere. What he’s saying is, ‘This statement stomped me’ ‘cause I don’t want to be told what to do. He’s like the brat stomping around, ‘I don’t wanna be told what to do, how dare you tell me what to do!’ and we know somebody else who behaved the same way, his mentor, which his heart still longs after. Herman, Mike, Nancy, their hearts still long after him. So the ones who spoke the loudest are the ones who are most wounded, but don’t tell them that, those are fighting words. Let’s fight, we wanna have a fight, and why won’t you fight with us Dave? Why don’t you fight? You lay a bomb on us and leave. When will my children desire and thirst for peace? They thirst for that which is not healthy, they pursue it, they chase after it. And he had the nerve to say, ‘Dave wants us to chase after him’ would that you did chase after him Mike! It would be the smartest decision that you would make in your life, but no, you are not interested.
[Cynthia: A-68 23.28 minutes.seconds This is Sept. 30th, Thursday, 11:00 pm in response to Dave’s original post on 9/27 “All were baptized into Stewart Triall. In every sense of the word: his teaching, his concepts, his views on life, his skepticism of other Christians. Go and learn what this means. [#109797] and all the offenses that were taken at it on Mike’s list]
And Nancy, her response is the epitome of why she cannot get healed, because she has denied any influence by him, she denies that she was wrong. I showed them to leave, and do you know what they left over my daughter? [Cynthia: No] Because they did not want them to get married, that was what they left over. [Cynthia: So, it wasn’t about seeing the fellowship as wrong, it was seeing a need to get married and not having the ability to do it.] Indeed. It wasn’t a cult, it was a church, she says. And they carry in their hearts all the things that he stood for, [Cynthia: That’s why they want to look at the workbooks.], lock, stock, and barrel. [Cynthia: And we call it filth, we burnt it. She was appalled.] She was appalled that you burned his stuff. In fact she was angry with you my son, [Cynthia: She called it literature.] for having the nerve to post this. [Cynthia: and brag about it] It is why she cannot get healed, for she still thinks that there is healing in this garbage. I used the analogy about a sister, when a sister was dressing herself up in garbage and saying, ‘Look how beautiful I am, aren’t I pretty Cynthia?’ and you were saying, ‘No, it does not make you pretty, but you are like a bag lady in the street, bragging about filthy, dirty, garbage dresses that you are wearing and saying, ‘Look how pretty I am, aren’t I beautiful?’ No, you are not. And at the end of your email, how can we pray effectively? [Cynthia: I didn’t put that in there though.] To remove the filth, [Cynthia: oh, I did put that in there.] if we do not see it? For she does not want to see it, she said, ‘I understand what you are saying’, she said it. She is more impressed with you being poetic, which you care nothing about. Well I gave him credit for being poetic, no Nancy, I was trying to get your attention, to get you to look at something you have refused to look at. And you finally came out and said, ‘Nooooooooo, Nooooooooo’ [at another time Cynthia likened her reaction to Luke Skywalker finding out Darth Vader was his father: Nooooooooooooooooooo, Noooooooooooooo] I disagree’ ‘Explain what you meant, I think I know what you meant’ They knew what you meant, they know exactly what you mean. They all know exactly what you mean. For they are determined to pursue their filth, determined to stay where they are, foolishly thinking that they will stay in one place. For they do not stay in one place, Nancy is a soldier, and she does not see how, when he [ST] finds the key, she will be called back into service and fight. You do not know how many people you will be constantly warding off when the show down begins. It will be, rockem’ sockem’ nonstop, mark my word, they will be coming from the left and from the right and from the North and from the South. For many will not want to fight, but they will fight; but he holds the key, for he has stolen their hearts. They have been robbed and plundered and they do not know the way back to the city, they do not know the way out and they will thumb their nose at this. How can they say they were not affected, it makes no sense. She said, I didn’t join a cult. [Cynthia: Unless we are able to see, and lift up the filth we partook of, how can we be cleansed of it, is how our explanation post ends] And you have asked them another question that they do not want to answer. For the Lord God will continue to challenge them.
[ Today is October 1st, 2010 at 12:38 am, we finally posted
about all the questions they had]
Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea,
Mat 3:2 "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Mat 3:3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."
Mat 3:4 Now John wore a garment of camel's hair, and a leather girdle around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.
Mat 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan,
Mat 3:6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
And here is a new concept, a concept that no one had heard of, although it was in the law, but only for the priests. I told John, what I wanted him to do and he understood it. Behold a new phenomenon had occurred, John did no great sign, but his spirit was poured on him mightily by the Lord God, so that all were coming to him. It was something new and it was different and it is the case in many cases, when prophets come, prophets seem to come out of nowhere. You have come out of nowhere, and they were coming to be baptized, for he explained to them their need for it.
Mat 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."
And he will clear it, make no mistake, the stubble that was before you has been cleared, it is no longer in your way. [Dave: wow] [Cynthia: we read Mat 3, down to vs. 12]
And notice, when the Pharisees and Sadducees come for baptism, out of no where he called them for who they were. It seems like he’s judging them doesn’t it, but he comes with strong language, ‘Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come you brood of vipers!” Ouch! Bear fruit that befits repentance. For the spirit showed him who they were. For many were shocked when he said this to them, for nobody talked to them like this, because they all thought they were pious and religious, but in truth they were not. They hid extremely well, my son. They had learned to hide themselves very well, but John and my son, Jesus, agreed, and called them what they were.
I know that you do not have the love of God within you. Is that not a bold and strong statement? Indeed, it is. So he was trying to let them know, ‘I see you, let me help you.’ You are saying on this message board, ‘I see you and I see Stewart Traill, for what he truly is, and what he did to you. Let me help you, I know how to help you. ‘No, no, stay back, stay back’ is what Nancy is saying. ‘Don’t take away my cloak, don’t you know it’s all I have?’ ‘And I’ve practiced a lot of years to keep it, go away Dave, let’s just talk about anything, except this.’ [We read Mat 3 down to vs. 12]
And I am saying, those who desire to be gathered, have to gather unto me, for they speak me, but know not me, and I contend with them that they do not know me. [Mt 3:12]
Indeed, for they have exposed themselves for what they truly are. They have exposed themselves for what they truly are. They are Stewart Traill’s disciples, as you and your wife were once his disciples. And when you started to date, you began to open your eyes to what had happened. The Jews said, ‘We are disciples of Moses.’ And what did my son say to them, ‘If you were disciples of Moses, you would know who I am if that were true. They see where you want to go and they don’t want any part of it. They are complacent, they are satisfied with where they think they are.[Mt 3:12]
Mat 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him.
Mat 3:14 John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
Mat 3:15 But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness." Then he consented.
And this is righteousness, that the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, that the healer, that he who granted wholeness to those who were unwhole, submitted himself and humbled himself that all could see his acceptance. That he accepted that he would be the forerunner. He became an example that others could follow his example. For how could a man humble himself to baptism unless he who he was following did it first? And I am saying that in the church of your youth Stewart Traill humbled himself to no one, he didn’t understand humility. And in fact he professed grandiosity, he was the grand poobah, the ayatollah, the one no one could question, the one no one could approach, he was unapproachable; and he taught the older brothers to be unapproachable. And they did emulate his behavior, and then went out witnessing, what, poor behavior? What did they witness? Who were they witnessing about? This you have already challenged.
[end of #A-69 23.17 minutes.seconds
Friday, October 1st, 2010 around 8:00 am with Tod and Dave on
the phone #A-70 03.30 min.sec
After reading stuff on XCobu list that others wrote about our post:
baptized into Stewart Traill
And you did say it, and I say let them be offended, and why is this? Because unless this people is offended they don’t respond at all. [Dave: Yep] So now, they have come out from behind where they were hiding and they are discussing the issue. If you had not said it the way that you said it, and if Tod had not followed up by agreeing with it, they would have never touched it, other than the very light touching that some do. So now the issue is fully explained. It is fully out on the table. This is what the Lord your God had in mind when he had you post it. Come and hear the thoughts of the Lord we are saying. And Mike does not like the use of authority. He rejects your authority, that is his problem. But his problem is deeper than that, for he refuses to acknowledge it publically and so this why he comes off half cocked, for he is not giving you his full mind. That is why he talks in circles. When you talk my son Tod, as you have spoken in your last post my children, you are as ones who are clear: this is what we think, this is what we stand for, we are not afraid to be open about it, we are ok if you disagree with us, why the need to hide? But to ones like Mike Montoya, who will not give up their chips, does this not sound familiar, for again he compares himself to Chris Blaise. How many emails of your brother did it take for him to directly come out and say, ‘I don’t agree’ [CS: fine] he could have said this from the beginning. And Tod also said, ‘I see that none of the points that I have made have influenced you to change your opinion, so be it. But his mind was made up from the beginning. It is for the benefit of others that this discourse has gone forth.
[CS: Yes, I agree] [end of A-70 03.30 min.sec]
Friday, October 1st, 2010 05:00 pm after reading Mike’s
response to 2nd post #A-71 51.51 min.sec
And once again, they strain out a gnat and they swallow a camel, again I will say, ‘This is a simple concept.’ If Mike Montoya was looking to God, as if he claims the other ones are looking to God, we wouldn’t have this conversation would we. For if they were looking to God, they would easily accept this, easily, and once again they are skirting the issue, he’s talking about categories of people, I am not talking about categories of people, I did not mention categories of people, purposefully, because once again my daughter he is talking Stewart Traill talk. [CS: That’s what I see] Indeed! He is talking his language! [CS: red, green, purple] Indeed! And Herman is saying, well, baptism is a good thing. Yes Herman it is, however, you failed to admit the obvious, you strain out a gnat Herman and you are swallowing a camel. Or say, you are holding onto a dung hill, ‘Well, some weren’t affected’. ALL were affected, how could they not have been? This concept fried Mike’s circuits; it’s still frying his circuits. And Herman is using the same thing that his mentor taught him in the church of his youth, ‘This is something perverse’ wake up Herman of course it’s perverse. Stewart Traill was perverse, so therefore what does it make you? Perverse, because you are still holding on to his filth. Well, there might be some people who were what? Mike, why the fighting Mike? If you were looking to Jesus, you wouldn’t have this conversation, you wouldn’t be talking so foolishly. For Mike you speak as one who is twisted, you are twisted Mike. Herman you are twisted. How are you going to get healed if you do not admit that you have a problem? If the master that you served under, if he filled you up with all kinds of vile thoughts, vile concepts, skepticism, criticism, suspicious doubt, and the like, and then you say Stewart Traill dented us, but we got saved by God, then you need to do some purging. You need to do some cleaning, as you told Dan Cooper, you need to clean the basement, and there are some vile things in it that you wish you didn’t have to look at. Well I showed you and your wife that you needed to start over, you didn’t want to hear it, but you realized that you needed to start over. For they have misrepresented Christ. They have learned Christ wrongly. [CS: That’s was the whole point of the whole thing.] And that’s the whole point indeed. [CS: And that was also stuff that he mentioned earlier.] Go the distance Mike, go the distance Nancy, go the distance Herman, but you refuse to do it. Spirit knows spirit. And this has got them twisted up, this simple statement. For they are offended that you would say such a thing as this. Mike is saying in the beginning, ‘I’m having trouble’ you were very clear, you were clear the first post. [in a whinny voice:] The alcoholic abuse thing, I don’t think it’s the right one to do; well, which one would you like us to do, Mike? Your eighth grader understands this one, but this people do not get it, because they don’t want to get it, they don’t want to see it. And you will not retract the statement. He said, you are clear, it is well written he says, you are clear. [Cynthia: The first one was well written too. It was more concise.] Indeed! But they thought they were going to trip you up, but you came back with more clarity. [CS: So they couldn’t get around it.] In truth it was a post they didn’t deserve. [CS: The one I sent, I know, I remember] In truth, they didn’t deserve it, but yet as you said my daughter, I put a little sugar in it. [CS: I didn’t really see the sugar, maybe because I mentioned Buddy and the alcoholic, I didn’t see the sugar, I wasn’t attacking] But I will say it was sugar, I will agree with you in that, but do you see my point? [CS: That they didn’t deserve it?] Yes. [CS: Well, they didn’t ask for it.] Indeed. [CS: Well, he asked, but he just wanted to fight] He was asking in a wrong manor. [CS: He said, ‘Are you still here Dave? You’re mute, you dropped a bomb.] Because you don’t sit there and spew everything that comes out of your mouth, as he does. You will not willy-nilly just talk off the cuff of your head. Because he gave himself away with that post, ‘I’m having a lot of trouble with my thoughts’, he’s saying. Again I will say this post shut him down because it was more of the same that your original post had been put, and it was explained clearly, and you used different examples. They refuse to connect the dots. They refuse to fill in the blanks. For the Lord God will rescue his people. The Lord God will have compassion on them.
[CS: Just throwing out some thoughts (#109913) just his whole thing about others not being affected is still a contention for me because, if they weren’t affected then why are they showing up for reunions 20 years later? If it was just something they did and got out of and didn’t get affected by, then why the need to reune? Dave: Good point. Now Chris would probably turn around and say, because we had some good times together, they were our friends. Well, those who are well have no need of a physician. I like that quote, it’s a good one. Its like, if they didn’t have to ‘get over it’
WOULD YOU LIKE A BLESSING?